Plumbers Diary, the Plumbing and Heating advice site

Plumbing advice,
Plumbing and heating problems.

About Ireland and the United Kingdom
where domestic water supply principles have changed little since Victorian times. Low water pressure conditions may lead to disappointing performance of combination boilers and imported taps.

Should we market high pressure pumped showers
when we know realistically the tanks that feed them
are unlikely to ever be cleaned or disinfected?
See Legionnaires' Disease.
We are only asked to inspect water storage when
there's no water or the odour from drowned mice
or birds becomes distinctly noticeable.

Removed but not resuscitated.
Underwater picks are taken at great risk

F B D insurers
offer us contractors a better deal with public liability
and vehicle insurance. Call for a quote.

Don´t wait until a party guest and radiator end up
flat on the floor. Ensure radiators are properly fixed?
In the Dublin area many are not. This advice is usually ignored so I have listed a few Independent
loss assessors on this page

We both love plastic pipes.
see plumbing page.

David Bonney and friend.

David Bonney miphe rp.
Forge House ,Terenure, Dublin.
email forge@clubi.ie

Burst pipes and emergencies
Check with your insurer for
an emergency assist line.
Leave it in a prominent position.
Preferably.
Get to know a competent local plumber.
Ask for obvious water damage risks
to be eliminated. Offer Tea and
Pay promptly.
Nice to know a plumber who
welcomes a call from you at any time.

I do hope you find any advertising useful
it helps maintain this site.

PlumbersPages
Will be the new plumbing directory when I get the hang of it? Perhaps we may even help you find a plumber.

Tainted Water.
Water in the mains should be taint free and quite wholesome. But any lead pipes that deliver water to the boundary line of your property may have some effect on water quality.
Your local water supplier may only replace this section of any lead pipe.

Any ageing lead pipe from the boundary line to the house is usually longer. It will have a greater effect on both quality and pressure of drinking water at the kitchen tap.
This pipe is the house owners responsibility.

All metal below ground mains water pipes that are breaking down can be replaced with the new plastic MDEP pipe.

New trenchless technology enables us to replace pipes with minimum disturbance to the driveway or garden. Call 0872587029.
Before starting we confirm the position of all other below ground services

Anyone concerned about the possibility of
lead in their water supply can take simple short-term precautions including not drinking water that has been standing in
the pipes overnight.
Showering and flushing of toilets first thing
in the morning should shift any tainted water before you fill the kettle or make drinks.
You don't drink tank water do you?.

Interesting energy site. Health and safety is also a green issue.
Photos of what would appear to be
in my opinion dangerous installations. X

X
Plastic tanks need support over the entire base area.
It may last for some years until a dripping ball valve
increases the water level and hot water pitches into
it from an inadequate standing open vent. or
thermostat may fail.
This can cause it to collapse with hot water pouring
down through the ceiling. Scalding fatalities may occur.
If you have a tank installed like this get it rectified.

This low hot water cylinder vent may emit boiling water instead of steam. x
I see many cylinder vents just hooked over the side of the tank..
A low vent pipe like this can emit boiling water instead of steam. Especially when the immersion thermostat fails.

The base of this plastic tank is unsupported. It may fail. x
Someone forgot the plywood base too. It certainly would
have collapsed if the thermostat had failed.

Poor plumbing and heating installation Dublin. X
The plastic heating vent has simply slipped down to discharge water through the ceiling. Note the cylinder open vent just laying on the edge.
A plastic storage tank should sit on a WBP plywood base on timber bearers. Chipboard can turn to mush if wetted from a leak in the roof.

This sorry looking tank was not designed to support another tank.
Note the warped side wall.
Plumbers are cautious when pointing out such installation faults.
We are aware that it may be the work of the householder, a friend or relative.
Reactions can range from being appreciative to downright hostile.

Scalding fatalities have highlighted the need for thermostats with a Hi limit trip button. Where is it?

I have often installed and set them but now a close look.

The high temperature limit pin is deeply recessed. Before tripping.

In this immersion thermostat the Hi-limit trip pin is between the two terminal screws is normally in a deeply recessed position.

I lower the manufacturers temperature setting when installing I then work upwards to the temperature wanted.

Inadequate control on primary heating circulation may account for the reported frequent tripping of the hi-limit protection and the fact that some merchants no longer stock them.

Note. The mechanical parts of an immersion thermostat will continue to move and wear even when the cylinder is heated from the oil or gas boiler.

UK SCALDING TRAGEDY of 10 month old baby.

A child was fatally scalded when an overheated plastic tank split.
It was located in the roof space over her cot.
There are so many poor installations like this all over Dublin
that It is reasonable to suggest that any health and safety checks
would include water storage, vent pipe-work and immersion
heaters as well as water temperatures at taps.
Creche inspectors must carry ladders and visit attic spaces.
A room full of sleeping toddlers No it is unthinkable!

I would ask every owner of a child care centre to ensure that
they do not have an installation like those depicted here.
A multiple scalding tragedy must not be allowed to happen.
Any creche owner with installation work like this could
end up in very serious trouble.
This is how it should be done. Links.

Requirements for the correct and safe installation
of a cold water storage cistern (Tank) and indirect cylinder.

Guidance on preventing domestic hot water scalding from taps.

Benefits to plumbers on joining the I.P.H.E.

Inadequate open vents should be promptly extended by a competent plumber.

All inadequate open vents should be quickly replaced.

Lowering this water level was no solution. The ball valve may fail.
I know I should clip it firmly in position but it's jigging around.

All hot water vent pipe-work should be copper.150mm plus 40mm
for every Metre of system height is thought to be ok.

I take vents at least 400mm above the top of the tank at the highest point.
I don't tinker with margins. Ventilation cut in tight fitting dust covers
also enables escape of steam in event of thermostat failure.

A fail-safe alternative is to extend the open vent pipe through the roof
covering and invert it externally, like in my great grandfathers time.
Perhaps we should start making patent 3/4 and 1in roof slates.

Warning Signs of Hot Water Cylinder Thermostat Failure.
If the standing vent pipe is high enough above the feed tank
you should only get steam and condensation in the attic.
It can eventually bring the ceiling down on top of you.
But you should see and hear signs before that happens.

If you get hot or warm water at cold taps or w/c cistern switch off
the water heating and ask a competent plumber to check it out.

In the South Dublin area call me David Bonney miphe rp
087 2587029 to have your water storage checked out.

Note to stingy clients. No matter how experienced
the plumber he is unlikely to reach into some dark recess
with a phase tester and say "Ah got it" Solutions to badly
installed or neglected systems are not that simple. see Gripes.

Isolate the immersion heater if you drain a hot water cylinder.

Vacant Property. Isolate the immersion heater if leaving
the cylinder drained. Someone may switch it on.

For an immersion heater re-wire in South Dublin
Call Tommy Munroe 087 2342637
Ask your electrician about the addition of a suitably
sized contactor to switch the immersion heater load

The high temperature limit pin has popped out. After tripping.

The thermostat rod was inserted into near boiling water.
The Hi limit pin has popped up and the circuit is permanently cut.
Your plumber will not push the pin in to re-set it without reducing
temperature setting and checking any boiler thermostat.

The hi-limit safety trip should not be relied upon to function repeatedly.

The realistic lifespan of a thermostat is about five to seven years.

How many dangerouse hot water cylinder vents in the Dublin area.

X
How many cylinder vents are like this in Dublin?

Pics Taken at a large housing development in the Dublin area.

Lazy hot water cylinder vent taken through the side of the plastic tank. The owner was told to inform his residents association.
The water level in the open vent pipe will always be higher than the level in the tank when the cylinder is hot.

Hot water may pitch into the plastic tank even if thermostat is OK. Ball valve failure alone allowing a rise in both water levels could enable this to happen.

Perhaps you should get a report from a competent plumber before handing over your hard earned cash.

In Ireland many people refer to the hot water
cylinder as the boiler. This may explain why
I see so many plastic pipes connected directly
to a cylinder. Next to the immersion heater.

Polyethylene pipe should not be connected
directly to a boiler or similar heat source.
It is important that such a connection be made
with a minimum of one metre of copper pipe.

Any recent exceptions to this standard should be
carefully studied before application.
If a pipe distributor claims that his pipe could be
taken directly from connections at the boiler jacket he
may be referring to a specific wall hung gas boiler.
Certainly not in my opinion a cylinder with an
electric immersion heater.

If anyone knows otherwise please confirm.
It is safer if the entire vent pipe from a boiler
or cylinder is piped in copper or stainless steel.

Buying a house?
Call a competent plumber to examine systems, water storage tanks and drainage.
Certainly be careful if trying taps or showers in vacant property
Water may be infected after laying unused for some time.

Would have certainly burst if thermostat failed. X
This un-vented plastic pipe could have burst if immersion
heater thermostat failed.... 1/2" copper and plastic pipe was
replaced with 3/4" copper. And left self venting.

Exorcising Ghosts!
Do you sense a presence in the form of terrible odour
that only occurs on the landing when going up the stairs to bed? Yes. it may simply be that plastic light bulb
holder above, overheating when the light is on.

Is there a foul odour in the office? Don't blame the most unpopular person in the place -it may be a plastic connector cooking up on the end of one of those old
florescent tubes above your head.

The first thing purchasers do when starting to renovate an old house is to put higher wattage (Hotter) bulbs
into the existing lamp holders. In fact some of these holders may need to be replaced.
I found a smelly lamp holder for new residents after they had exhausted the services of dry rot specialists to no avail. Of course their work was carried out during the hours of daylight when the offending light was off.

I usually sniff out an such a lamp holder from above
while the client holds the step ladder firmly.
( Remember the warm air / odour rises)

Surveys. I carry out ultrasonic steel
thickness tests on radiators and tanks for anyone
with corrosion concerns.
An echo to echo mode allows this to be
done without removing the original paint.

Sonatest precision steel thickness meter.
Rad Testing

Perforation of a corroded radiator.

Perforated radiator due to corrosion.

I cover the South Dublin area call 0872587029
or try. Dublin Area Services.

Almost leaking steel tank.

Observation suggests that disaster is imminent.
Some ignore such a tank until a water damage
claim helps pay for it

Legionnaires Disease.
Not nice water to shower with.

Hubble Bubble!
Overheating is obviously a problem as a layer of
a colourless mucus-like substance was present
just below the surface,
It had a yellow tinge where in contact with air.
Found supplying a gravity shower.
The system was cleaned, chlorinated and flushed.

Whilst us plumbers cannot test for Legionella bacteria
we certainly can identify the conditions in which it thrives.

The IOP Plumbing Engineering Services Design Guide
mentions reports of many sporadic cases of Legionnaires
Disease associated with domestic water systems.
The recommended annual cleaning or disinfection
of water storage tanks and pipe-work rarely occurs.

The switch from bath to shower use may result
in insufficient flow activity within a range of tanks.

Ask you plumber to consider disconnecting any
surplus or stagnating tanks, especially if a bath is
being disconnected.

Whilst you may need enough stored water for
an interruption in supply, it should not be so
excessive that the replenishment rate fails to
provide the much needed cooling effect during
the summer months.
Wherever possible cold water tanks should be
insulated and water stored at below 20 degC

A section through a tank insulating jacket
available from tank manufacturers.
Note the plastic dust cover which helps the
tank retain its shape.
Amazingly these jackets do not appear to
be stocked by Builders merchants in the
Irish Republic. I have to order them in
for my clients.

Two different Fernox products for
combating Legionnaires disease.

1. The Original Fernox Chlorinating kit.

When the above product is used chlorinated
water must be fully flushed out before a system
is bought back into use.

Ask your plumber to check the water storage
and remind him about the Fernox treatments.
In Ireland, Stocked by Hevac Dublin 4191919
If in UK Try BHL

The un-lagged cold tank may be a Legionnella risk?

It may overheat if the hot water cylinder is left heating while you are away on holiday. Flush through before showering upon your return even if it's lagged.

New Apartments!

Placing hot and cold storage within the same enclosure is surely a questionable practice.

Especially if there is no dust cover or lagging on the cold water tank or lagging on the pipes.

If this type of installation is
the only option every effort
should be made to reduce
heat transfer to the cold
water tank.
There is a risk of any infected
water droplets entering the
lungs while showering.

see This Months item.

Planners should certainly not
allow combined hot and cold
storage. Even if the developer
does want to flog off the tank
room as a penthouse.

It is reported that the Legionella bacteria is very common and is present in many plumbing systems. It can multiply in the trapped warmer areas of dirty or poorly inter-connected tanks.
When the tank supply falls or fails this infected water
enters the system.
Shower users may inhale infected water droplets especially if the
pressure is high enough to atomise the water into small enough droplets.
Other Possible unique circumstances for contracting the disease

A user is perhaps unfamiliar with the shower controls.
A sudden cold spray causes a sharp intake of breath which
traps infected droplets in parts of the lung not normally open.
Using a shower immediately after an aerobic activity would in my opinion seem to present a risk.
Breathing should be allowed to normalise before showering.
Sports clubs and Gymnasiums should consider
signage. No Heavy Breathing in the showers.

Initial symptoms are similar to those of flu- headache, muscle pain followed by vomiting & shaking chills. On the second or third day- coughing with chest pain may occur. Patients may develop pneumonia.

It is important that all suspected cases are presented
for immediate medical diagnosis and attention.

Some may contract the bug and show no signs of infection.

It is likely that many cases of Legionnaires Disease go undiagnosed, especially in the elderly who often succumb to lung related problems.

How many power showers are connected to dirty storage tanks?

Despite the consumers reluctance to spend on
such essential hidden items shower installers
should insist that stored water problems are
addressed.

Thanks to feebleminds-gifs.com

Grant aided installations for the elderly.
Where mains water supply is reasonable local health authorities
could specify quality mains fed electric showers.
Installers would have to replace any old lead services and balance
the mains supply available.

Unfortunately we will have to wait until the effects of a long hot summer draws attention to legionnaires disease.

2. LP Sterox is a new non hazardous water treatment biocide used to clean and disinfect water systems and appliances.
It is unique in providing a very wide spectrum of biocidal activity and will effectively treat all water borne bacteria and viruses. (If used properly)

LP Sterox is particularly valuable in modern
water system hygiene management where
conventional treatments such as chlorination
may be unsuitable.
Fernox state that "One Litre will treat a 300 litre
system during normal use. Or a 400 Litre system
if left for 24 hrs after application.

Systems in continually occupied buildings like nursing homes may be treated with less interruption to services.
A competent plumber may be able to siphon dirt from
a sound in service tank that has been treated.

Opinion from
Experts welcome?

Water filled Fire Extinguishers are left standing
for long periods at room temperature.
Do fire protection engineers routinely
use additives in water filled extinguishers
to prevent legionnella growth?

It would be a pity to survive a fire and then
be struck down with legionnaire's after inhaling infected water droplets.

This link
takes you to Denis's informative site.

Water Damage claims may be handled
for you by an independent loss assessor.

Phoenix Claims Consultants.
12 Sefton Green,
Dun Laoghaire,
Co Dublin.
Michael Walsh A.C.I.I.
Tel (01) 235 0536
086 227 2426.
ml.d.walsh@gmail.com

Stephen Keogh & Associates
Insurance and Property Services
14 Woodstown Close
Knocklyon
Dublin 16
Phone:   +353 1 495 8518
Mobile:   +353 87 2722811
Email:     admin@skeoghassociates.ie

N J CARROLL & associates
226 Harold's Cross Road,
Dublin 6w.
Tel 01 4979432
Fax 01 4979300
email njcarroll@eircom.net

The authors and publishers of this site accept no liability, nor do they encourage you to do work that should be undertaken by a qualified tradesperson. The content of this site is best viewed and discussed with your plumber.
Any original material on this site is not to be reproduced or transmitted without the written permission of David Bonney forge@clubi.ie
All rights reserved. © 2006 David Bonney.